Monday, April 7, 2008
BIRTH RIGHT OR NOT?
GOOD MORNING FRIENDS…GOT COFFEE? HEHE….. WELL APPRECIATED THE COMMENTS AND GLAD TO BE ABLE TO CLARIFY POINTS ON PAST ENTRIES, AND THIS BRINGS US TO TODAYS QUESTION. WERE YOU BORN? WERE YOU MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF GOD? WERE YOU GIVEN THE CHANCE OR BETTER ASED THE OPTION OF SALVATION THROUGH JESUS’ DEATH? IF YOU ARE READING THIS THEN I AM 100 PERCENT SURE THAT ALL THESE THINGS CAN BE ANSWERED WITH A YES….AND THAT YOU WILL AGREE THAT THE BIBLE TEACHES YOU THAT. SO THEN YOU ALSO HAVE TO AGREE THAT WE BY RIGHT OF BIRTH ARE GIVEN THE OPTION TO THE HEIRDOM OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD ….CORRECT….OBVIOUSLY YOU ANSWERED YES. NOW, WEBSTERS SAYS THIS, Right, privilege, or possession to which a person is entitled by BIRTH. WHEN WE LOOK BACK IN THE OLD TESTAMENT WE SEE HOW ESAU HAD THE BIRTH RIGHT TO ALL OF HIS FATHERS LAND ANIMALS AND SO FORTH…. NOW IM SURE THAT YOU AGREE TO THIS SO AS YOU READ FURTHER ON IN THE BIBLE YOU WILL SEE FOR THE LACK OF SOMRTHING IN HIS LIFE …FOOD…CAUSED HIM TO SELL IT TO JACOB FOR FOOD….SO… GOD SENT JESUS TO EARTH TO GIVE ALL MANKIND THE OPERTUNITY FOR SALVATION, THEREFORE IN TURN ALSO GIVING US OUR BIRTH RIGHT. NOW, WE CAN DO EITHER AS ESAU AND SELL OURSELVES TO SIN, TEMPTATION, AND SPIRITUAL DEATH, (LOSING OUR BIRTHRIGHT) OR HUMBLY MAKE THE ATTEMPT AT RETAINING THIS GIFT THROUGH THE SALVATION IN CHRIST. I SAY HUMBLY MAKE THE ATTEMP BECAUSE NO MAN IS PERFECT, BUT AT THE POINT OF RECOGNITION AND UNDERSTANDING AS TO WHAT THE STRAIGHT AND NARROW IS, WE ALTER OURSELVES ACCORDINGLY. NOW…ASK YOURSELVES WHEN DO WE LOSE THIS BIRTH RIGHT? FORTUNATELY, UNLIKE ESAU WE ARE ABLE TO RECOVER THIS RIGHT AT ANY POINT IN OUR LIVES UP TILL DEATH. I SEE LIFE AS SUCH….LIFE IS A LONG ROAD, NARROW AND EXTREMELY STRAIGHT, WITH DITCHES ON BOTH SIDES. WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU DRIVE DOWN A ROAD AND HAPPEN TO GO OFF INTO THE DITCH? IT GETS REAL ROUGH. SO WHEN IT GETS REAL ROUGH GOING YOU ARE PROBABLY NOT ON THE RIGHT PATH…OR GOING WHERE GOD WANTS YOU TO GO….WALLACE WATTLES WRITES IN HIS BOOK THE SCIENCE OF GETTING RICH, THAT GOD WANTS YOU TO BE HAPPY, TO ENJOY EVERYTHING THAT HE HAS PUT HERE, BUT HE ALSO WANTS YOU TO DO HIS BIDDING. NOW, SOME MAY SAY THAT DOESNT SOUND LIKE ANY FUN…. THAT IS BECAUSE THEIR PERCEPTION OF FUN IS WORLDLY…..SEE GOD GAVE US HEALTHY BODIES, GOOD LITERATURE,BEAUTIFUL CARS, HOUSES, AIRCRAFT, ELECTRICITY, RUNNING WATER, HANDSOME MEN, BEAUTIFUL WOMEN WONDERFUL CHILDREN, GOOD ROADS, AND THE LIST GOES ON AND ON….YOU MIGHT BE SAYNG NO HE DIDN’T, SOMEBODY INVENTED THEM. EXACTLY, AND HOWWAS THAT POSSIBLE? THROUGH THE ABILITY TO THINK, REASON, DREAM AND ACT….ALL OF THESE THINGS ARE HERE FOR OUR ENJOYMENT, SO ENJOY THEM, LIVE LIFE, AND BE HAPPY….NOW, THIS BRINGS ME TO ANOTHER TOPIC THAT I WILL CLARIFY, YOU MAY BE SAYING LISTEN TO THIS GUY ALL TALKING BIBLE AND ALL BUT STILL CLAIMING TO THE “”IF IT MAKES YOU FEEL GOOD DO IT “” LIKE THE REST OF THE WORLD. OK, I DON’T DENY THE FACT THAT I THINK LIKE “”IF IT MAKES YOU FEEL GOOD DO IT”…BUT IT DEPENDS ON THE INDIVIDUAL AND HOW THEY CREATE THEIR HAPPINESS. NOW IM SURE THAT YOU WILL AGREE TO THE FACT THAT NOBODY DOES A WHOLE LOT OF WHAT THEY DON’T LIKE TO DO OR WHAT DOESN’T MAKE THEM HAPPY, RIGHT. YOU KNOW AS WELL AS I DO THAT A PERSON, ANYBODY CAN ENJOY A BEAUTIFUL HOUSE AND LOVE TO DRIVE AN EXOTIC CAR, OR ENJOY A GOOD BOOK, WITH THE LIST GOING ON AND ON... RIGHT? NOW YOU ALSO KNOW THAT IF AN INDIVIDUAL GOES OUT AND CREATES THEIR HAPPINESS THROUGH COMPETION, GREED, LUST, SEFISHNESS, AND PRIDE THAT THEY REALLY ARE NOT HAPPY EXCEPT IN THE MOMENT, AND IN TRUE REALITY ARE LOOKING FOR THAT SOMETHING BUT DON’T KNOW WHAT IT IS. HAVING THIS GREAT LACK FOR SOMETHING IN THEIR LIVES CAUSES THEM TO KEEP ON LOOKING AND LOOKING FOR THEIR TRUE HAPPINESS. MONEY AND WORLDLY PLEASURES ARE NOT THE ANSWERS FRIENDS… WHAT DO YOU GET WHEN YOU GIVE AN UNHAPPY MAN A MILLION DOLLARS..... AN UNHAPPY MAN WITH A MILLION DOLLARS….A VERY PROMINENT AND WEALTHY MAN WHO HAD ENCOUNTERED IN HIS LATTER DAYS THAT HIS FAMILY LEFT HIM AND HIS HEALTH WAS IN A BAD WAY SAID …..I WOULD GIVE ALL MY MILLIONS TO HAVE MY FAMILY AND HEALTH BACK. THIS MAN HAD WORKED HIMSELF OUT OF A BEAUTIFUL FAMILY AND GOOD HEALTH ALL IN THE SEARCH FOR HAPPINESS THROUGH MONEY….FOR WHAT. MONEY IS A WONDERFULL TOOL, BUT A TERRIBLE GOAL. WANT MORE MONEY, WANT MORE HAPPINESS, DO WHAT EVER IT IS THAT YOU LOVE TO DO…. WITH THE INTENTION OF WHAT EVER IT IS, THAT SOMETHING WILL BETTER HUMAN LIFE FOR ALL, AND BE IN ALIGNMENT WITH GODS DESIRES FOR YOUR LIFE. FRIENDS WE DON’T HAVE TO STRUGGLE IN LIFE, WE DON’T HAVE TO, BUT WE WILL. WHY, THAT IS HOW GOD KEEPS YOU ON THE RIGHT ROAD. SO IF YOU FIND YOURSELF STRUGGLING, JUST ASK HIM TO SHOW YOU THE RIGHT PATH BACK TO THE STRAIGHT AND NARROW SO THAT YOU CAN CONTINUE RENDERING SERVICE TO HIM IN THE WAY HE WISHES. TRUST HIM AND HE WILL WITHOUT A DOUBT, SHOW YOU, AND BLESS YOU. REMEMBER FRIENDS THAT IF YOU ASK YOU ALSO NEED TO LOOK FOR DOORS THAT OPEN AND FOLLOW THAT INNER VOICE. BE READY TO ACCEPT THE DUTY NO MATTER WHAT….AND YOU WILL SEE THE WORLD OPEN UP BEFORE YOU. SMILE AND LAUGH WITH SOMEONE TODAY, BE HAPPY AND GAURENTEED MORE HAPPINESS IS SURE TO FOLLOW, LOVE AND MORE LOVE WILL FOLLOW, GIVE AND GIVE SOME MORE. THINK ABOUT THIS FOR A MOMENT….DID YOU KNOW THAT THE THINGS THAT WE GET FOR FREE AND WITH OUT LIMIT ARE THE THINGS WE REALLY LIMIT AS TO WHAT WE GIVE OUT TO OTHERS …… SMILES …LAUGHTER….HAPPINESS….LOVE. YOUR GREATEST RICHES WILL BE DERIVED FROM THE GIVING OF THESE THINGS AS ABUNTANTLY AS YOU RECEIVE……KNOW IT
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19 comments:
Thanks for explaining your opinion on the birthright. However to compare the inheritance which Esau was to receive by birth with the kingdom of God is to compare apples with oranges. Esau's inheritance was physical, God's kingdom is spiritual.
God has ordained that the gospel be preached to all people (Mt. 28:19-20, Mk. 16:15-16) thus it can be said that everyone has the right to hear the gospel. Right of entrance to the kingdom is given ONLY to those who obey, (John 3:3-5, Acts 2:38-47, etal ).
When things get real rough it does not necessarily mean that we have done something wrong. Consider Peter (Acts 4:1-4, 5:17-18, 12:1-5), Paul(Acts 14:1-6) men who suffered greatly for doing what was right and expected of them by the Lord.
As for the "feels good do it" philosophy, it too overlooks clear Bible teaching! Consider: Moses chose to suffer ill treatment rather than enjoy the PLEASURES of sin for a season (Hebrews 11:24-26), please read also Romans 7:7-25 of Paul's struggle with right and wrong.
God has promised to provide our necessities (Mt. 6:33) but where in the scripture does he promise pleasure, wealth, beauty, lack of suffering in this life? Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, made it a point to teach us to be content with what we have (Philippians 4:11-12)and that "Godliness with contentment is great gain" (I Timothy 6:6).
Josiah, i'm confused at what you are trying to say. What I got out of the post was that everyone has the birth right but not everybody will except it.Or in other words what you just said. Do you consider going to jail for the work of the Lord, or getting killed because of what you belive in suffering? I would also like to piont that in Gal. 5:19-21 it tells us what the works of the flesh are. I don't belive that the author of this blog is telling us that if those thing make us feel good to do them, do you.Every good gift comes from God.If you are content with what you have how can you not have weath, beauty and pleasure?I don't know about you but I look at what the Lord has given me and I can't help but say,I'M SOOO BLESSED.
To the author of this blog, hope you don't mind me trying to under stand where josiah is comming from. thanks
Josiah, i'm confused at what you are trying to say. What I got out of the post was that everyone has the birth right but not everybody will accept it.Or in other words what you just said. Do you consider going to jail for the work of the Lord, or getting killed because of what you belive in, suffering? I would also like to point that in Gal. 5:19-21 it tells us what the works of the flesh are. I don't belive that the author of this blog is telling us that if those thing make us feel good to do them, do you.Every good gift comes from God.If you are content with what you have how can you not have wealth, beauty and pleasure?I don't know about you but I look at what the Lord has given me and I can't help but say,I'M SOOO BLESSED.
To the author of this blog, hope you don't mind me trying to under stand where josiah is comming from. thanks
Well Fred, communication is such a challenge isn't it.
Here are my points.
1. We have no birthright to the kingdom of God. We become heirs only by rendering obedience to the will of God, by being "in Christ". If I am wrong please give scriptures that I may learn.
2. We suffer as Christians for doing what God wants us to do. Yes I call jail time etc. suffering for so the apostles called it. See Acts 5:17-41 for context and notice vers 41 in particular. Also note I Peter 2:19-20, II Timothy 3:12.
3. The "If it feels good do it" philosophy by nature has no bounds toward good or evil, each person becomes a god unto themselves determining what is right or wrong. As such it is diametrically opposed to Christianity. What the blogger intended was not easily determined by several readings. Having read it a couple of more times it is understood that this is not what he meant. Wisdom would necessitate the use of extreme caution in identifying in any way with such a philosophy.
I certainly acknowledge and praise God as the giver of every good gift and few if any enjoy the beauty of His creation more than I. Therefore I too am "sooo blessed and am a wealthy man, I just don't have much money.
Dear Sir,
After reading this blog posting thoroughly (3 times to be exact), I must point out some things that we disagree on.
1.) No we do NOT have the right of heirdom by birth. The Bible specifically states that we become heirs through adoption (Ro. 8; Gal. 3:25-4:4; & Eph. 1:3-11) therefore it is not our right to be heirs of God from our birth. That also nullifies your example of Esau and his birthright because his was a inherent right by the nature of him being firstborn.
2.)As we live life, one should be aware that there are not one but two paths through this life. Christ explained them as A.) a wide gate and a broad way; and B.) a strait gate and a narrow way. (Matthew 7:13-14) He makes it clear in this passage that if you are not on the one, you are on the other.
3.)In dealing with the above point number 2, the Greek word used for "narrow" in this passage is thlibo and means: "G2346 θλίβω
thlibō (thlee'-bo)
Akin to the base of G5147; to crowd (literally or figuratively): - afflict, narrow, throng, suffer tribulation, trouble." according to Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible with Hebrew and Greek. I therefore, fail to agree with you on your point that when things are rough, we are in the ditch. I wish to point out that I agree with Josiah when he pointed you to the lives of Peter and Paul. Also bear in mind the 11th chapter of Hebrews for more examples of those who, while doing what God required of them suffered and were not in the ditch.
4.)God never once promised us a smooth road though life. See last point, but also remember that "(3)For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. (4)Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. (5)And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: (6)For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. (7)If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? (8)But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. (9) Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? (10)For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. (11)Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby." (Hebrews 12:3-11).
Now, I realize that I might have mistaken your point, and to this end if I have I hope that you can clear up this misunderstanding so that I can apologize. I would also like to suggest that, since you are obviously thinking on Spiritual things, you might include your references so as to allow your readers to be able to follow along :). I do rather like your style of writing although shouting at me over a morning cup of coffee gives me the jitters lol.
Looking forward to your reply:
Christian
Josiah sorry it took me solong to get back to you,this is the first chance I have had to read your comment.In Heb.12:14-16 it talks about the birthright.Also in 1Peter 2:24-25 it talks about Jesus's sacrifice for our sins, because "Ye were as sheep going astray;"I would also like to say there was no "church" before Jesus died.Now so thier is no mis understanding I agree that you have to be saved to go to heaven,to accept this gift from God. I will also say that just because some one has a birth right doesn't mean they will accept it.Also want to point out that a birth right is a gift, it is not something that is owed.In your reference to the word suffer, there are several different way to use that word.When in Acts 5:41, it says they sufferd shame,I cannot belive that they were ashamed of being christians, or that they were ashamed of God.Hope you can understand what I'm trying to say.
Would like to point out that there is a differnce in being chastised and persicutions.There was an example of fathers of the flesh.I would hope that you as fathers did not just get up every morning and tell your childern to stand in a line, and start slapping them.
Fred: glad to see that we agree on some things like; there was no church before Christ died (acts 20:28, Matt. 16:16), (a church is mentioned in Acts 7:38 as "the church in the wilderness" and has reference to the time when Moses was on Mt. Sinai and Israel was gathered at the foot of the mtn. waiting for him.) Christ died to save us (I Peter 2:24-25).
If we look at the context in which the verses sighted are found we will not have such a problem understanding the concepts. Acts 5:41 says that they suffered shame for the Name. It also says they rejoiced to be counted worthy to suffer shame for the Name. They had been put in public ward (we would say jail)Vs. 18 and brought before the council in vs.27. Both of these events would have been humiliating or shameful. It is obvious by the words which Peter spoke before the council that they were not ashamed but rather the contrary for he said "we must obey God rather than men" then goes on to tell the council it was guilty of crucifying Jesus. When Peter and the apostles were dismissed they went away rejoicing that they had been able to suffer for the Name.
It is true that Hebrews 12:16 mentions "birthright", in fact it is the only time in the New Testament this term is used. It has reference only to Esau and is used in part to identify a profane man who did a profane thing. In other words to illustrate the point.
Something we have all been overlooking in this discussion is the fact that the "birthright" was given only to the firstborn male. Perhaps since you contend that we all have this "right" you could explain where this leaves those of us who are not the firstborn or are not male. Will only males get to Heaven?
Josiah, first there are niether male nor female in heaven.second the birthright did not always go to the first born. Would also say, in your first comment on this blog you tried to say it was apples and oranges,if that was the case why does he use the same example that contagious1 used?
Fred: Please answer the following questions offering scriptures to support your answer.
1. Where is a scriptural example of the birthright going to someone other than the firstborn without being sold?
2. Where in scriptures could I find that we have a birthright to the kingdom before being "born again"?
3. Please explain the passage, Hebrews 12:14-17.
Looking forward to your answers.
Josiah, if you look at Abraham his first born was Ishmael, I don't believe that some bread and a bottle of water was his birth right.
In answer to your other questions it is talking to Christians about christians and the unsaved. So what is your explanation.
Dear Fred,
Just a quick side note on your comment. Abraham wanted to God to accept Ishmael as the son of promise, however God told him no and to heed the voice of Sarah and send him away. (Genesis 17:17-21; Genesis 21:9-14; Galatians 4:22-31) Let me ask you, Does man's command and tradition supercede God's command? I think not. Therefore Ishmael received not a birth-right because God did not allow him to.
Also in reference to your post, you failed to answer the other of Josiah's questions (I was looking forward to reading your answer :)).
Are there Scriptural references for us obtaining a birth right to the Kingdom before we are "born again"?
Hebrews 12:14-17 is talking to Christians about how to live as Christians and watch that we do not fail the grace of God, nor allow bitterness to trouble us and defile others, nor fornication be among us, nor profane people. What is meant by the phrase "that there be no fornicator or profane person like Esau"? Does that one phrase mean that like Esau we have a birthright? No. It is an example of someone who threw away something precious for literally nothing or just a moment's pleasure just as a fornicator does (or someone who turns their back on the promise of God). An interesting note is that in the entire NT this is the only place that the word birthright appears and it is NOT in conjunction to salvation.
Christian
Fred: From the scriptures, at what point was the birthright received? Before we can understand the birthright we have to know what the custom, or rules if you will, was that governed it. Please explain.
As to the rest of your response I am not sure which question it answers. I will repeat the questions in hopes that you will be more specific in your answers. Remember to provide scriptural support for your answers.
2. Where in scriptures could I find that we have a birthright to the kingdom before being "born again"?
3. Please explain the passage, Hebrews 12:14-17.
Hey ya'all. Josiah asked for an example of when the birthright went to some one other than the fist born. I think we agree that Ishmael was born fist. I also think we agree that Ishmael did not recieve the birthright. As far as "birthright" it could be said because you were born, and you have sinned, you can be saved. If you need refrences for the above statement let me know. I agree with you that we have to follow the steps of salvation to go to heaven, that salvation is a gift. So no you can't inherit the kingdom of God (go to heaven) unless you are born again.
Heb.12:14. it say "follow peace with all men" are you saying that only christians are men?
15. "Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; I understand this to say, don't be so caught up in your own world, life, that you miss the chance to help a struggling christian, or bring someone new to christ.
16-17. tells why it is so important.
Hope i answerd your questions in an easily understandable way. :)
Fred: I need references, I have been asking for references. Please show me the way! By the way, I don't need the reference for Ishmael, that one is easy.
In asking you to explain the Hebrews passage I was expecting you to explain how the birthright of Esau related to my salvation. I still don't understand that part.
As to your question from vs.14 I am sure you know the answer is "mankind" and is not gender specific.
I hope you and everyone else is enjoying this discussion as much as I am.
To go along with my comments on the Context and Relitivity post, I would like to further clear up the confusion. It is definitely a birthright,why? As both Josiah and Christian pointed out children are born without sin, they are born going to heaven. Therefore it is their birthright. They have no sin therefore they have no need of salvation. Salvation is a gift from God for us who have sinned and still wish to inherit our birthright. Josiah you say that the example of Esau's birthright is physical and not relevant to spiritual apples to oranges as you say then are Jesus' parables apples to oranges? Physical related to spiritual? Jesus himself is the head cornerstone wich the builders refused, physical related to spiritual. Ephesians 4:15-16. So I suppose when we are served apples and oranges we should make a smoothie =)
Dear breezn, Fred, and contagious1;
I still fail to understand your point, I'm afraid. I think I need to stop a moment and back up.
I would like to request of all three of you a couple of simple tasks.
1.) Could you please utilize that most precious and fundamental foundation of a Christian's life a.k.a. The Bible, to explain your point so that I might study this out and come to a right understanding? One thinkg I always try to do is shape my beliefs from the Word of God and not shape the Word of God according to my beliefs. If I see someone promoting a belief as Scriptural yet not using any to back their belief I become very suspicious of that belief and the one promoting it.
2.) Inherant in any good discussion or debate is the requirement to define one's terms. Could you please define birthright, right, and entitled for me? I would like to know what they mean to you before I continue this wonderful discussion which has given me an opportunity to study and learn.
Looking forward to your Scriptures and definitions.
Christian
Dear Breezn and Fred,
You both seem to have confused parable with example.
Jesus used a parable which is defined as: 1. a short allegorical story designed to illustrate or teach some truth, religious principle, or moral lesson 2. a statement or comment that conveys a meaning indirectly by the use of comparison, analogy, or the like. "dictionary.com"
In other words, a parable is a story of an common, everyday event used to teach a spiritual truth to the common, everyday man. That is why farmers understood the parable of the sower, the poor understood the parable of the lost coin, etc.
Hebrews 12:14-16 utilizes an example of something wrong. Esau sold his birthright, something he should have held onto, which was a profane thing and he, therefore was a profane man like we should not have amoung us.
Comparing Esau's profaning of his birthright to the possibility of us having a birthright to profane by sinning, is indeed trying to compare an appl and an orange. They are two very different thing.
Christian
Breezn: I would like to add my thoughts on the apple - oranges business. If you look at all of the clear parables they will all begin with a statement such as "the kingdom of heaven is likened unto. . . ". Is anything like this said of the birhtright?
In your example of Jesus as the chief cornerstone it is clearly indicated two physical items, Jesus and the cornerstone. We understand the spiritual application from the context. Can such example be given for the birthright?
How far does that smoothie stretch?
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